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Eclipse Lore of the Ancient Cherokee

Discussion in 'General Astronomy Chat' started by Orion25, Aug 30, 2017.

Eclipse Lore of the Ancient Cherokee

Started by Orion25 on Aug 30, 2017 at 5:28 AM

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  1. Orion25

    Orion25 Well-Known Member

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    "When an eclipse happened during the times of the ancient Cherokees, they believed a giant frog that lived in the sky had swallowed the sun (or moon, if it was a lunar eclipse), causing darkness to occur during the daytime. The Cherokees and other tribes would gather and fire guns, beat drums, and generally make noise so as to frighten the great frog away, making the sun shine brightly again." http://visitcherokeenc.com/

    cherokee frog.jpg
     
    Last edited: Aug 30, 2017
  2. kevan hubbard

    kevan hubbard Well-Known Member

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    I love night sky mythological stuff and the way peoples have tried to make navigable the great mystery of life using the heavens.to me the heavens are as much a portal to the inner as outer universe. Eclipses are indeed magical and in some ways lunar is better than solar as it lasts longer!one particular magical event sticks in my mind that of watching mercury transit the sun about two years back using solar film over a spotting scope and a monocular.I suppose I've never seen astronomy from a purely scientific point of view but as integrated into the whole of life.
     
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  3. Orion25

    Orion25 Well-Known Member

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    One of the many things I love about astronomy is that it can take you so many places, intellectually, emotionally, artistically, philosophically, spiritually. I feel a true connection to the cosmos each and every time I'm under the stars (including our sun!) There is no "up there" or "down here", just everywhere! The stars, planets, galaxies, etc. are watching me as much as I am watching them :)
     
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  4. Dave In Vermont

    Dave In Vermont Well-Known Member

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    Reggie -

    I don't know how familiar you are with Stellarium, but it has the 'Starlore' tab to use many different cultures' stories & images for such things as the Constellations and names of the stars, etc.

    I just checked it, and the Cherokee is notable missing. If you know of any the tribe that could give this over to the Stellarium developers, I'm sure they'd be delighted to have it and include it in the software. You likely know how to contact Alex and team, or ask me and I'll be happy to connect you folks.

    All Power to the Cosmic Frog!

    Dave
     
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  5. Orion25

    Orion25 Well-Known Member

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    Thanks, Dave. I have Stellarium and noticed the starlore feature. I'm going to look into getting Cherokee lore on there. I'll try contact the Eastern Band and see if this could get this in motion. The Cherokee make up the second-largest indigenous tribe in the U.S. and need to be represented! Excelsior!:D

    Now, to check on my droid, Orky (he's still hurt over Cassie's plunge)...
     
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  6. kevan hubbard

    kevan hubbard Well-Known Member

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    Some of the Maori and aboriginal starlore is very good reading. When I was in Wellington, New Zealand, I bought a very good little book detailing how the Maoris saw the stars.the constellations seem to reflect animals like kangaroos, emus, etc..our northern skies have bears, horses, etc..
     
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  7. Dave In Vermont

    Dave In Vermont Well-Known Member

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    Good going Reggie! I was quite surprised to see no Cherokee in the Starlore tab in Stella - as I've taken to call it. :p Be a good time to think about this, as Alex has just released the newest full-version: 0.16.1*

    http://www.stellarium.org/

    Pay no attention to the website not showing this called '0.16.1' on the download-tab. Just a minor oversight I'm sure. I downloaded it already with no problem whatsoever. It's smooth as silk! Me like!

    Reggie - who has the US Census goons decided is the #1. largest bunch of us? Navajo (Diné)? Sioux?

    Hey Kevan! I have read many things on the Maori - all truly fascinating. I love their physical additions - the incredibly intricate 'tattoos.' These remind me greatly of the tattoo's done in the Amazonian-Rainforests by many different Peoples.' In the Amazon - I have thought these designs were elicited by the visuals brought on by the images seen from use of Ayahuasca in ceremonies and Shamanism. But then you see the Maori - who don't have Ayahuasca to use (or blame...:D) So it leads me to speculate it comes from a commonality from what Jung called the collective-unconscious. Rather a 'Chicken vs. Egg' paradox. Cool stuff indeed! It would mean what I've often concluded was the truth. And this being that the sacrament (Ayahuasca) only serves to allow one a glimpse to always present.

    Do you know if Stella has the Maori starlore aboard? I know it has the Aborigine represented.

    This 'stuff' is like a magnet for me!

    Dave
     
    Last edited: Sep 23, 2017
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  8. kevan hubbard

    kevan hubbard Well-Known Member

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    Captain cook respected the Maori star navigation skills and was greatly aided by a Polynesian in his travels in the southern oceans.cook is thought to be the first person to cross the Antarctic circle although we can't be sure how far south he got but he was stopped by ice flows so it must have been pretty far!don't know if he took a Polynesian navigator on that jaunt? Must be amazing views of the southern hemisphere stars from Antarctica.
     
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  9. Orion25

    Orion25 Well-Known Member

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    I just left a message with tribal council and hope to hear from them , soon. The 2010 census has the Navajo as the most populous at 308,013, the Cherokee in place at 285,476 and the Sioux at show with 131,048. (I'm about to digress here!) But I know lots of full-bloods who either didn't qualify or just didn't go for the enrollment crap, and the whole blood quantum thing is a joke. Many Native scholars recognize blood quantum as a systematic way of decimating tribes and eventually taking their land. Over time, the "blood" dilutes and nobody qualifies anymore for tribal status - oops, let's take the land! :mad:

    Sorry about that!

    On a less political note: thanks for making the suggestion about stellarium! :)
     
  10. Dave In Vermont

    Dave In Vermont Well-Known Member

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    You're welcome for the Stella-Link. Washingon and 'BIA' needs a big-needle of Stellazine (high-powered anti-psychotic medication).

    The usual method is to simply refuse to recognize a "Tribe" as a "real" tribe. Therefore - the treaties have no legitimate meaning....

    Shred! Shred! Shred!

    Dave
     
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  11. kevan hubbard

    kevan hubbard Well-Known Member

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    I suppose over time blood dilution is something all 'tribes'ethnic groups have to face? People meet new people have children and the gene pool widens. In some ways it's good as it improves genetic diversity and resistance to diseases but the old ways change or cease to be which is sad.and on a political note the land grabbing kleptomaniac oligarchs will argue that due to these changes old treaties no longer stand.however no man is an island (was it Winston Churchill who said that?). The Australian aborigines seem rather mixed these days but their prime DNA run seems to connect then to the devonsonian peoples and thus with the people of southern India.I'd warrant that the northern and southern Indians(using India in the pre partition sense)have little connection to each other. Linguisticily the languages of northern India and the south are unrelated this however doesn't stop the Indian government of imposing the indo European language,Hindi, over the whole country.
     
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  12. Dave In Vermont

    Dave In Vermont Well-Known Member

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    If the 'blood-dilution' premise is to be used on the Native, then only a direct descendant of Jesus can be a 'Christian.'

    Slam! Bang!

    'Ta,

    evaD
     
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  13. Orion25

    Orion25 Well-Known Member

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    It's interesting how different cultures view the sky. A challenging exercise is to try viewing the sky using another culture's perspective. I did this with a Lakota and an Objiwe skymap; it was a real mind-bender!
     
  14. Orion25

    Orion25 Well-Known Member

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    Good point! I believe the indigenous people of the Americas are the only collective of people who must be legitimized by blood quantum and rolls. A further wrench in the works is that individuals of multiple Native heritages may not qualify for citizenship in a particular tribe despite being "fully Native". Go figure! :eek:
     
  15. Dave In Vermont

    Dave In Vermont Well-Known Member

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    The Stellarium-crew is trying to get better translations for their Ojibwe material. Don't know what's going with the Lakota. But I can imagine your being rather mystified! :D

    I'll tell you sometime about how 'Lacross' was really played the first-time. It was the Ojibwe - who are notorious pranksters! :eek: :D

    <POIT!>
     
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  16. Orion25

    Orion25 Well-Known Member

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    I can't wait to hear that one :eek:
     
  17. kevan hubbard

    kevan hubbard Well-Known Member

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    Which would mean no Christians as he is said to have had no offspring!! However some gnostic thought claims that he married. All heady stuff....possibly Valentinus?gnostic ideas seem very varied but all are very interesting.
     
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  18. Orion25

    Orion25 Well-Known Member

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    You're right, Kevan, about blood dilution as something to face. Blood was not originally a factor for tribal inclusion. People of other tribes and races were routinely adopted at the tribe's discretion. The Cherokee Freedman descendants (descendants of the former Cherokee slaves) recently won a battle of the attempt to oust them from the Cherokee Nation. The original Cherokee constitution included the Freedmen and their descendants as full tribal citizens following the Civil War, but recently a powerful political faction disenfranchised the descendants and took steps to kick them out. Ironically, the matter was settled by a Federal judge (!) who interpreted the original Constitution as all-inclusive of the Freedmen and their descendants to which tribal council did not contest or appeal. Three of the other "civilized" tribes (Muscogee, Chickasaw and Choctaw) are still dealing with the Freedmen exclusion issue, and the Seminole still consider Freedmen as somewhat less than full tribal members. I hope that the tribes become like they once were, all-inclusive of those dedicated to preserving the culture, regardless of blood quantum or race, and being independent of the federal government for resources, truly sovereign. It's interesting what you shared about the aborigines and the Eastern Indians. Politics!:mad:

    Reggie
     
    Last edited: Sep 23, 2017
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  19. Orion25

    Orion25 Well-Known Member

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    Have you ever tried navigating the stars using a different culture's sky map? I've been trying to conform to the Lakota and Ojibwe sky maps. I haven't been able to find a Cherokee map yet. It really challenges your traditional way of relating to the sky:
    Native Sky Map Ojibwe (Annette Lee - Dakota Tribe).jpg Native Sky Map Lakota (Annette Lee - Dakota Tribe).jpg
     
  20. kevan hubbard

    kevan hubbard Well-Known Member

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    Southern Indians! Roughly a line across India south of Hyderabad and devonsonian DNA and people speaking Dravidian languages. Hyderabad must be indo European, guessing it means water city?,there's one in Pakistan too.my guess being the Australian aborigines must have used island chains to get to Australia? The nicobar islands, Indonesia and the Torres straits islands. Tasmania seems as far south as they got.be interesting to know if any humans visited Antarctica before captain cook nearly got there!?bit like Uranus loads of people must have seen it before Herschel identified what it was but it was just another faint 5.8 magnitude star.
     
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